Open Bible Ministries

An Online Discussion About The Baptism With The Holy Spirit

By Dr. John Wagner

This is an actual online email discussion I had with a person I will call Bob (not his real name). I include this discussion here because it is typical of many discussions I've had over the years with people curious about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and may be what you are experiencing now. I would be happy to discuss any of the issues raised here in a private email exchange if this is something you are curious about.

The Initial Question...

Bob:

From your website..."If I am not filled with the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues - does that mean I am not a Christian?

John

A person becomes a Christian by faith in Jesus Christ and receiving Him as their personal Lord and Savior. Being filled with the Holy Spirit is for an empowerment to be Jesus' witness following salvation. The two are entirely separate experiences. Never let anyone tell you you are not a Christian if you don't speak in tongues!"

Bob

I have went forward countless... countless times... countless times.... ASKING to be filled... I've shook, I've cried, I've even fallen over... but I've never spoken in tongues. My Pastor, my youth Pastor, everyone around me who (in their own mind are TRYING to encourage me) simply tell me to keep trying, and that during all the above described times I went forward that I got "BLESSED" which is good, but I haven't been filled yet... I just need to keep asking.. (aka begging God?) to give me tongues.

John:

I don't know exactly what you are saying by "countless" times. I personally only went forward about two or three times and also had people praying for me and nothing happened. Then I decided going forward might not be where it was at for me.

But, don't stop asking! You see, Jesus told His disciples to "tary" until they were endued with power. How long is that tarrying supposed to be? I don't know. I don't know why it takes longer for some people than others to be filled with the Holy Spirit. But I totally agree with your pastors - keep on asking! Never stop asking!

After my experiences with going forward I began asking the Lord to fill me with the Holy Spirit every day in my personal devotions for six months and still nothing happened. At least I thought nothing had happened.

I was expecting to get something everyone else had. Everyone who prayed over me and for me and everyone I heard speak in tongues would pray what I called "full sentences and paragraphs." In other words it sounded like they just went on and on and on. During my private prayer times I asked Jesus to fill me with the Holy Spirit. I asked Him not to let the devil deceive me with anything fake or counterfeit. I also said I didn't want to just imitate others' tongues.

What happened during this six month time period, was that a little tiny phrase came to my mind. It seemed like a quarter inch long compared to what I heard everyone else doing. So I thought, well, that can't be it. And kept asking the Lord to fill me with the Holy Spirit. After that, every time I asked, that little phrase would go through my mind. And each time I pushed it away because I didn't think that was it.

Finally, I went to Hawaii (Navy) and was in a prayer meeting with some elderly ladies. One of them suddenly prayed in tongues - but guess what, she prayed a little tiny phrase over and over again. Right in the middle of the prayer meeting I turned to her and said "Is that all you pray in tongues?" She was startled and a little embarrassed I think. But when I explained to her what had happened to me she explained that that was all she ever got. She accepted it by faith and uses her little phrase faithfully. She said she was open to the Lord giving her more, and occasionally asks for more, but never gets any more. She trusts that the Lord has given her what He wants her to have.

I was amazed and we went back to pray. I felt such a pressure, or fullness inside after that, like I was gonna burst! But I couldn't get myself to step out and open my mouth and speak. The prayer meeting ended and I went back to my barracks room. Just as I was going inside a phrase went through my mind - this time it was a little longer - maybe a "six inch long" size instead of a quarter inch size :>) but again I couldn't speak it. I thought "I just can't." Just as clear a thought went through my mind "Why not, no one is here?" So I whispered it. Again, the thought went through my mind, "Say it out loud." When I did, I felt so happy! All I could say was "I got it! I got it!" I ran downstairs and called my fiancé in California and then called the lady who hosted the prayer meeting to tell her.

This was my story. You will have your own. But it will be personal to you. Because that is how much the Lord loves you. He is going to give you your own experience with Him. But you might need to pray where it's quiet so you can hear the Lord speak to you. Sometimes it's necessary to just tune everyone else out so you can listen to the still small voice of the Lord. Sometimes there's just too much "loud" around and the Lord can't get through. But don't stop going forward, just add private times of prayer when you ask too.

You said you "ask God" to give you "tongues". If you look at the baptism comparison logic chart on our web site you will see that it is Jesus who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. When you ask next time, begin asking Jesus to fill you with the Holy Spirit. Also, you say you ask Him to give you "tongues". Don't ask for tongues. Ask Jesus to fill you with the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit you need, not tongues. The tongues will come when you are filled with the Holy Spirit.

Please understand, when you ask you need to exercise your faith too. If, after you ask, a weird sounding phrase or jumbled up sounding something comes to your mind, say it out loud. It isn't enough to just hear it in your head. You have to speak it out loud! The devil will attempt to convince you it isn't real or it's fake or even that your copying someone else who you heard speak in tongues. You have to push past those thoughts and speak out the strange sounds anyway! The Lord isn't going to give you something that will harm you.

Bob:

Now... I know your saying that maybe I am a " Baby Christian"

John:

I definitely am NOT thinking you are a baby Christian! Baby Christians don't ask the kind of questions you are asking!

Bob:

You can't help but think, "second class" Christian and not yet a " First Class "or "empowered" Christian...

John:

I most assuredly do NOT think you or anyone else who has not been filled with the Holy Spirit is in any way a "second class" Christian!!!!

Bob:

"...but contrast my above begging for tongues with this FACT that I've also at the same time held many many bible studies with unsaved friends, I've street witnessed, I've went door to door for the church, I've even personally lead three people to the Lord... so how is it that I have been doing these things if I have not YET been quote unquote "empowered" to be a witness? And it begs the question should I even be "witnessing" at all? Once someone becomes a Christian should a person NOT be witnessing to people if they haven't spoken in tongues yet?

And it's also interesting to think... HOW IN THE WORLD does anyone ever get saved in a Baptist church if there is no-one (including the Pastor?) who has been quote "empowered" to be a witness? Can you witness even if your NOT "empowered".. and if not speaking in tongues somehow makes me a "less effective" witness , why is it that I've asked and asked and asked... but God has chosen to see fit to "limit" my ability to be a witness by not giving me tongues?"

John:

These things you have been doing are GREAT! I am impressed and this just shows me why the Lord is giving you such a strong desire to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It sounds to me like you are a good strong witness for the Lord now. This is excellent! But I also believe that if you were filled with the Holy Spirit you would be even more powerful in your witnessing than you are now! The Baptism of the Holy Spirit isn't to make you "better" than somebody else, or to look down on somebody else, or maybe think they are second class Christians because you've been filled and they haven't. It is to make YOU a more powerful witness than YOU would be without the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Do you understand the distinction I'm making?

Bob:

Thank you for your reply... but I don't feel you've answered my questions... at least not biblically anyway.

I asked, how is it that the FACT that I currently am "witnessing" and teaching bible studies... there have been several times that as I teach I feel the Holy Spirit prompting me to a verse etc. How is this possible (biblically) if you and all these other Pentecostal Preachers are telling me that I don't even HAVE the Holy Spirit?

John:

1. I told you last time that even people without the baptism of the Holy Spirit witness.

2. All of us "Pentecostal Preachers" are not telling you you don't have the Holy Spirit. We (there are exceptions) believe that a person is "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit at salvation according to Romans 8:8-11. This is not the same as the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

Bob:

My direct question is.. if you (and others I don't mean to single you out, I just stumbled on your page that's all) but if you are saying that the baptism of Holy Spirit is for the "Purpose" of empowering to witness. It would stand to reason that if someone HAS NOT (according to your formula) received this empowering, that he or she would not be able to witness... correct?

John:

No! Many people who have never received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit witness. If they were filled with the Holy Spirit they would be more powerful witnesses than they were before. Logically, a person who is filled with the Holy Spirit will in fact be a more powerful witness than a person who is not filled with the Holy Spirit. But how that actually plays out in real life is a far more complicated issue. Because if a person who has not been filled with the Holy Spirit chooses to witness a lot and share Jesus with friends, relatives, coworkers, etc. is sitting next to a person who has been filled with the Holy Spirit and yet that second person, for whatever reason, chooses not to witness much at all, it will definitely appear that the person who is not filled with the Holy Spirit is a more powerful witness. It's sort of like a person who needs to cut down a dead tree in his front yard and has access to a chain saw but chooses to go out and cut it down with a hand saw.

Bob:

Except... and here's the key..I and others who haven't spoken in tongues...do witness... so is it in our own flesh? Am I witnessing only in my OWN power, just because your saying I haven't been "empowered" by the Spirit?

If tongues is THE sign by which we know we are empowered.. then how can Paul in 1 Cor ask the rhetorical question...1 Corinthians 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Now are you saying that Paul would simply over look the fact that "tongues" was THE gift of all gifts to show that a person is empowered... and yet, he lists it LAST in the order of the gifts... and it simply accepts the fact that "some Christians" just wouldn't accept the gift to be empowered to be a witness? If it was THE gift to show we're empowered to witness, I'd like to think there would be a much stronger emphasis made here than just accepting that "not all speak in tongues"

John

Bob, you are now confusing two different things. When we are discussing tongues as the initial evidence of being baptized in the Holy Spirit we are not discussing the "gift of tongues". Those are two totally separate things. It is the same "tongues" but for totally different purposes. Not everyone who has been filled with the Holy Spirit will be used in the operation of the "Gift of Tongues" in a public worship service. Just like my daughter and I both speak english but I use my English to preach and teach while she uses her English to sing operas and musicals. If I tried that they would laugh me off the stage! Many people find it impossible to separate the two different uses of tongues.

Bob

...and again, how can you not say that then makes someone a "second class" Christian? The ONLY reason you say that, is because you know it would be rude (let alone unbiblical), but yet this emphasis is made on tongues being THE sign, makes it so...

John

Sorry Bob, but though I will discuss the issues with you I will not enter an argument with you about this.

Bob

you know it's true, and even acknowledged it in your story with the little old lady when you asked her about her "short little repeated phrase".. she was embarrassed, why? If it doesn't matter, why was she embarrassed?

John

She was embarrassed because of my abrupt question to her in the middles of a prayer time.

Bob

Could it possibly be because the "emphasis" placed on tongues DOES make it matter.. and thus... a division, those who "speak" and "those who don't". Can you honestly tell me you don't feel like I'm "lacking" something in my Christianity, because I haven't spoken in tongues...

John

Yes Bob, I do think you are lacking something in your relationship with the Lord. God has something for you that He wants to give you. You don't have it, therefore you are lacking something. Just the same as when I was raised in the Lutheran church and did not have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ I was lacking something in my life.

Bob:

Can you honestly tell me you don't consider yourself a more "EMPOWERED" Christian than the Baptist Preacher down the street?

John:

Yes, Bob, I do feel I am more empowered than the Baptist preacher down the street. There is an entire realm of the Spirit that I operate in and which he chooses not to operate in. I am speaking not just about speaking in tongues, but in the operation of all of the Spiritual Gifts as listed in 1 Corinthians 12 as well. But at the same time I do not say that with any kind of arrogance or pride either, it's just a fact. I can love my Christian brother down the street even though he isn't filled with the Spirit and I would hope he could love me as well. I do not go around trying to rub people's faces in the fact that they are not Spirit Filled. That is a choice people make. God isn't going to force anything on someone. He doesn't force salvation on people and He does not force people to be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is up to us whether we receive it or not.

Bob:

How is it that there are Thousands upon Thousands of Christians that are brought to the Lord by people who DON'T speak in tongues... people are used mightily to further the kingdom, people like RC Sproul, James Dobson, Billy Graham, Charles Stanley, Chuck Swindoll, Max Lucado, even earlier spiritual giants like Charles Finney or Spurgeon ... countless ministers of the gospel who have impacted our world and yet DON'T speak in tongues... How? And with WHO'S Power? Their own?

John:

My only question is what kind of power would they have had in their lives had they in fact been filled with the Holy Spirit?!

Bob

...the one thing brother that gives me comfort... regardless of speaking in tongues or not, and understand I'm not saying tongues don't exist, just this over emphasis on them...

John

My presentation of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with the initial evidence of speaking in other tongues might seem like an over emphasis to you - but not to someone who has never heard of it and is seeking to understand what is. A person in a non evangelical church, like the one I grew up in, where the saving message of the Gospel isn't preached, will also find the message of salvation on our web site. Ministers in non evangelical churches might also find my emphasis on the necessity to receive Jesus Christ as our own personal Lord and Savior as an overemphasis! Liturgical churches who baptize infants might find my emphasis on water baptism by immersion an overemphasis on that subject. And, finally, many churches are into these new contemporary choruses - some of which are very good. But many churches have practically thrown out the name of Jesus during their song services. To them my emphasis on Jesus Christ might seem like an overemphasis too. To me they are not. To me they are the clear teaching of the written Word of God and my attempt to faithfully and clearly and rightly divide the Word of Truth (2 Tim 2:15) "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." KJV.

Bob

this verse I think speaks volumes...

1 Corinthians 13:1-3, 13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing... And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

How did Jesus say we would know that we are HIS disciples? Love... that's the evidence.

John

I agree. Love is the evidence of being a disciple of Jesus! All of the Gifts of the Spirit are worthless if we do not operate out of love! That is just like the person who is filled with the Holy Spirit and has no desire to witness. Being filled with the Spirit for that person is also worthless!

Well, until next time, Bob. God bless